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	<title>Comments on: Peirce and the Problem of the Single Case</title>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Livengood</title>
		<link>http://choiceandinference.com/?p=318&#038;cpage=1#comment-142</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Livengood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 23:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://choiceandinference.com/?p=318#comment-142</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know.  As I mentioned in a reply below, it may be that Peirce was running together the two kinds of single-case problem.  But I think the best way to understand the problem here is as a challenge to justify the practice of maximizing expected utilities.  (I think, as it turns out, that Peirce produces such a justification.  But I also think that justification is pretty lame.)  The problem, then, isn&#039;t really about the meaningfulness of probabilities but about why it is rational to maximize *expected* utility, when this does not come with a guarantee about *actual* utility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know.  As I mentioned in a reply below, it may be that Peirce was running together the two kinds of single-case problem.  But I think the best way to understand the problem here is as a challenge to justify the practice of maximizing expected utilities.  (I think, as it turns out, that Peirce produces such a justification.  But I also think that justification is pretty lame.)  The problem, then, isn&#8217;t really about the meaningfulness of probabilities but about why it is rational to maximize *expected* utility, when this does not come with a guarantee about *actual* utility.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Livengood</title>
		<link>http://choiceandinference.com/?p=318&#038;cpage=1#comment-141</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Livengood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 23:41:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://choiceandinference.com/?p=318#comment-141</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I think you&#039;re right about what you say here.  In this sense, I don&#039;t think you&#039;re missing anything at all.  Maybe I should have been clearer about that above!

Peirce says funny things in a lot of places, though more often than not, what he says turns out to be interesting.  It may be that he had too strong an empiricism/nominalism about probabilities at this stage in his thinking.  And it may be that he was running together the two kinds of single-case problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I think you&#8217;re right about what you say here.  In this sense, I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re missing anything at all.  Maybe I should have been clearer about that above!</p>
<p>Peirce says funny things in a lot of places, though more often than not, what he says turns out to be interesting.  It may be that he had too strong an empiricism/nominalism about probabilities at this stage in his thinking.  And it may be that he was running together the two kinds of single-case problems.</p>
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		<title>By: Henning Strandin</title>
		<link>http://choiceandinference.com/?p=318&#038;cpage=1#comment-139</link>
		<dc:creator>Henning Strandin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 12:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://choiceandinference.com/?p=318#comment-139</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Jonathan, for pointing me in the right direction, I do understand the proposed problem better now.

I had the impression that the event was supposed to be problematic for statistical (frequentist) probabilities in the same way that an event such as China winning the race to land a man on Mars is, but this is evidently not the case. Card draws qualify as a &quot;mass phenomenon&quot; (to use von Mises term), allow, in principle, for unlimited repetition, we supposedly have actual statistical data supporting our assigning the probability 1/26 to the event of drawing the black card from the red deck, and so on.

But of course von Mises (I don&#039;t know Peirce&#039;s theory very well so use him as the prototypical frequentist) had another problem with assigning probabilities to particular events, even statistical events, in that it seemed to him that the probability could be anything depending on the choice of reference class. I suppose the event in Peirce&#039;s thought experiment could be regarded as problematic in this sense. But it&#039;s not perfectly obvious to me that it is. We are allowed, on the frequentist picture, to say that the probability of drawing some particular card from some shuffled deck of 26 cards is 1/26. To me this seems to go far in justifying our claim about what is the rational choice in the described situation.

Peirce says something funny in one place: &quot;But in the case supposed, which has no parallel as far as this man is concerned...&quot; This seems to suggest that only statistical data that has been personally and directly acquired qualifies. This isn&#039;t what other frequentists had in mind at all. Frequentist probabilities are supposedly objective, and the underlying data can be shared. Bracketing the reference class problem, I am &quot;frequentistically justified&quot; in believing that the probability of drawing a particular card from a shuffled deck of 26 is 1/26, even if I personally only ever make one such draw.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Jonathan, for pointing me in the right direction, I do understand the proposed problem better now.</p>
<p>I had the impression that the event was supposed to be problematic for statistical (frequentist) probabilities in the same way that an event such as China winning the race to land a man on Mars is, but this is evidently not the case. Card draws qualify as a &#8220;mass phenomenon&#8221; (to use von Mises term), allow, in principle, for unlimited repetition, we supposedly have actual statistical data supporting our assigning the probability 1/26 to the event of drawing the black card from the red deck, and so on.</p>
<p>But of course von Mises (I don&#8217;t know Peirce&#8217;s theory very well so use him as the prototypical frequentist) had another problem with assigning probabilities to particular events, even statistical events, in that it seemed to him that the probability could be anything depending on the choice of reference class. I suppose the event in Peirce&#8217;s thought experiment could be regarded as problematic in this sense. But it&#8217;s not perfectly obvious to me that it is. We are allowed, on the frequentist picture, to say that the probability of drawing some particular card from some shuffled deck of 26 cards is 1/26. To me this seems to go far in justifying our claim about what is the rational choice in the described situation.</p>
<p>Peirce says something funny in one place: &#8220;But in the case supposed, which has no parallel as far as this man is concerned&#8230;&#8221; This seems to suggest that only statistical data that has been personally and directly acquired qualifies. This isn&#8217;t what other frequentists had in mind at all. Frequentist probabilities are supposedly objective, and the underlying data can be shared. Bracketing the reference class problem, I am &#8220;frequentistically justified&#8221; in believing that the probability of drawing a particular card from a shuffled deck of 26 is 1/26, even if I personally only ever make one such draw.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonah Schupbach</title>
		<link>http://choiceandinference.com/?p=318&#038;cpage=1#comment-137</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonah Schupbach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 08:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://choiceandinference.com/?p=318#comment-137</guid>
		<description>One other thing. Of course, the question - in the light of my last comment - then becomes the following: &quot;yeah, but what do you mean that the act was fully rational if it didn&#039;t lead to the desired outcome in the real world?&quot; And the answer is something like: &quot;I mean that it was tied to the highest probability for the most desirable outcome in the real world.&quot; But this answer then takes us right to the problem of the single case as understood more commonly today: &quot;yeah, but what could you possibly mean by the probability in this single case?&quot; So the puzzle raised by Peirce is indeed closely related to the problem of the meaningfulness of probability statements pertaining to single cases. Do you agree?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One other thing. Of course, the question &#8211; in the light of my last comment &#8211; then becomes the following: &#8220;yeah, but what do you mean that the act was fully rational if it didn&#8217;t lead to the desired outcome in the real world?&#8221; And the answer is something like: &#8220;I mean that it was tied to the highest probability for the most desirable outcome in the real world.&#8221; But this answer then takes us right to the problem of the single case as understood more commonly today: &#8220;yeah, but what could you possibly mean by the probability in this single case?&#8221; So the puzzle raised by Peirce is indeed closely related to the problem of the meaningfulness of probability statements pertaining to single cases. Do you agree?</p>
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		<title>By: Jonah Schupbach</title>
		<link>http://choiceandinference.com/?p=318&#038;cpage=1#comment-136</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonah Schupbach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 08:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://choiceandinference.com/?p=318#comment-136</guid>
		<description>Thanks Jonathan; I think that that&#039;s the clearest statement of the puzzle on the blog so far. That said, I&#039;m not sure at all that there can be a settled resolution to this problem, and I suspect that the &quot;resolution&quot; that many would opt for is precisely the one that Peirce finds so distasteful. Something like:

&lt;em&gt;Well, sorry it didn&#039;t work out for you, but at least you acted in accord with reason. Unfortunately, the rational act was not linked with certainty to the more desirable outcome; the act was fully rational (in light of the respective probabilities and utilities) but that doesn&#039;t mean that the desired outcome was fully certain. Now have fun in hell!&lt;/em&gt;

Again, not much of a consolation I suspect! But as soon as probabilities enter the picture, it seems that we must allow for the most rational act not always leading to the most desired outcome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Jonathan; I think that that&#8217;s the clearest statement of the puzzle on the blog so far. That said, I&#8217;m not sure at all that there can be a settled resolution to this problem, and I suspect that the &#8220;resolution&#8221; that many would opt for is precisely the one that Peirce finds so distasteful. Something like:</p>
<p><em>Well, sorry it didn&#8217;t work out for you, but at least you acted in accord with reason. Unfortunately, the rational act was not linked with certainty to the more desirable outcome; the act was fully rational (in light of the respective probabilities and utilities) but that doesn&#8217;t mean that the desired outcome was fully certain. Now have fun in hell!</em></p>
<p>Again, not much of a consolation I suspect! But as soon as probabilities enter the picture, it seems that we must allow for the most rational act not always leading to the most desired outcome.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Livengood</title>
		<link>http://choiceandinference.com/?p=318&#038;cpage=1#comment-130</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Livengood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 11:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://choiceandinference.com/?p=318#comment-130</guid>
		<description>In a sense, you&#039;re not missing anything.  In another sense, you&#039;re missing the whole problem.  As the original question went and as Jonah emphasized, the problem is about rationality, not about the meaningfulness of probability in the given scenario.  The invocation of probability makes the case interesting, because in cases where there everything is non-probabilistic, doing what is rational guarantees success.  Whereas, when an action is chancy, one might do the &quot;rational&quot; thing and still fail.  Imagine you are playing Monopoly.  You own the orange properties just before Free Parking, and all the other players are visiting Jail or within three spaces of it.  The rational thing to do (I think) is to leverage as much money as you can into houses or hotels on those properties.  But doing so doesn&#039;t guarantee that you will win the game.  Maybe all the other players will get lucky and miss your properties.

The question, then, is about why we say that picking from the mostly white deck is the rational thing to do, or why we say buying houses/hotels is the rational thing to do.  And a big part of answering the challenge is figuring out what to say to someone who has done the rational thing and lost big.

Does that make sense or am I confused?  Incidentally, I&#039;d still like to know how people think the puzzle is to be resolved.  What do you think, Jonah?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a sense, you&#8217;re not missing anything.  In another sense, you&#8217;re missing the whole problem.  As the original question went and as Jonah emphasized, the problem is about rationality, not about the meaningfulness of probability in the given scenario.  The invocation of probability makes the case interesting, because in cases where there everything is non-probabilistic, doing what is rational guarantees success.  Whereas, when an action is chancy, one might do the &#8220;rational&#8221; thing and still fail.  Imagine you are playing Monopoly.  You own the orange properties just before Free Parking, and all the other players are visiting Jail or within three spaces of it.  The rational thing to do (I think) is to leverage as much money as you can into houses or hotels on those properties.  But doing so doesn&#8217;t guarantee that you will win the game.  Maybe all the other players will get lucky and miss your properties.</p>
<p>The question, then, is about why we say that picking from the mostly white deck is the rational thing to do, or why we say buying houses/hotels is the rational thing to do.  And a big part of answering the challenge is figuring out what to say to someone who has done the rational thing and lost big.</p>
<p>Does that make sense or am I confused?  Incidentally, I&#8217;d still like to know how people think the puzzle is to be resolved.  What do you think, Jonah?</p>
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		<title>By: Henning Strandin</title>
		<link>http://choiceandinference.com/?p=318&#038;cpage=1#comment-129</link>
		<dc:creator>Henning Strandin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 13:50:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://choiceandinference.com/?p=318#comment-129</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure I see how the card draw described by Peirce is unique in a way that is problematic for statistical probabilities. The event constitutes, presumably, a standard card draw from a shuffled deck of 26 cards. I don&#039;t see that even von Mises would have had a problem assigning a statistical probability for drawing the uniquely colored card in the described situation. Every event, even statistical ones, have features that make them unique, features we leave out of those that qualify them for the reference class. What happens after the card is drawn, what consequences the result has, seems to me to be irrelevant (just as it&#039;s not usually relevant _who_ draws the card). What am I missing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure I see how the card draw described by Peirce is unique in a way that is problematic for statistical probabilities. The event constitutes, presumably, a standard card draw from a shuffled deck of 26 cards. I don&#8217;t see that even von Mises would have had a problem assigning a statistical probability for drawing the uniquely colored card in the described situation. Every event, even statistical ones, have features that make them unique, features we leave out of those that qualify them for the reference class. What happens after the card is drawn, what consequences the result has, seems to me to be irrelevant (just as it&#8217;s not usually relevant _who_ draws the card). What am I missing?</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Wolverton</title>
		<link>http://choiceandinference.com/?p=318&#038;cpage=1#comment-126</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Wolverton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 13:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://choiceandinference.com/?p=318#comment-126</guid>
		<description>I have nothing substantive to add, but would note that this is a timely question.

Peirce seems to be concerned about the psychological impact on the petitioner who despite his best efforts at applying reason and the presumed very high propensity of the single trial to go his way nevertheless loses the game and suffers an undeserved disastrous consequence. With appropriate tailoring, Peirce&#039;s scenario is analogous to the recent financial manipulations involving high risk mortgages and associated derivative financial products. Except, of course, instead of the financial players (who gambled that a very low probability event wouldn&#039;t occur in a single &quot;trial&quot; and lost) deservedly going to psychological and financial hell, (relatively) innocent bystanders are instead. Unlike the bankers, Peirce&#039;s petitioner apparently isn&#039;t well-connected with members of heaven&#039;s admission committee who can pull a few strings on his behalf notwithstanding his bad luck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have nothing substantive to add, but would note that this is a timely question.</p>
<p>Peirce seems to be concerned about the psychological impact on the petitioner who despite his best efforts at applying reason and the presumed very high propensity of the single trial to go his way nevertheless loses the game and suffers an undeserved disastrous consequence. With appropriate tailoring, Peirce&#8217;s scenario is analogous to the recent financial manipulations involving high risk mortgages and associated derivative financial products. Except, of course, instead of the financial players (who gambled that a very low probability event wouldn&#8217;t occur in a single &#8220;trial&#8221; and lost) deservedly going to psychological and financial hell, (relatively) innocent bystanders are instead. Unlike the bankers, Peirce&#8217;s petitioner apparently isn&#8217;t well-connected with members of heaven&#8217;s admission committee who can pull a few strings on his behalf notwithstanding his bad luck.</p>
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