<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Reflection and the Second Ace</title>
	<atom:link href="http://choiceandinference.com/?feed=rss2&#038;p=245" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://choiceandinference.com/?p=245</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2010 15:34:57 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher Hitchcock</title>
		<link>http://choiceandinference.com/?p=245&#038;cpage=1#comment-110</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Hitchcock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 18:30:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://choiceandinference.com/?p=245#comment-110</guid>
		<description>I concur with Joel and Kenny&#039;s diagnosis. 

If you play bridge, and are serious, you learn a principle called &#039;restricted choice&#039; that works the same way. Suppose that I am missing both the king and queen in a key suit. I do not know which opponent (LHO or RHO) has it. Suppose I play the jack, and RHO wins it with the king. Now LHO is a 2 - 1 favorite to hold the queen. The reason is that if RHO had the king only, he would always play the king -- likelihood of 1. If he had both the K and Q, he would play the K only half the time -- likelihood of 1/2. This skews the posteriors toward LHO holding the Q.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I concur with Joel and Kenny&#8217;s diagnosis. </p>
<p>If you play bridge, and are serious, you learn a principle called &#8216;restricted choice&#8217; that works the same way. Suppose that I am missing both the king and queen in a key suit. I do not know which opponent (LHO or RHO) has it. Suppose I play the jack, and RHO wins it with the king. Now LHO is a 2 &#8211; 1 favorite to hold the queen. The reason is that if RHO had the king only, he would always play the king &#8212; likelihood of 1. If he had both the K and Q, he would play the K only half the time &#8212; likelihood of 1/2. This skews the posteriors toward LHO holding the Q.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jake Chandler</title>
		<link>http://choiceandinference.com/?p=245&#038;cpage=1#comment-105</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake Chandler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 21:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://choiceandinference.com/?p=245#comment-105</guid>
		<description>Yes indeed Kenny, well-put! The thought had occurred to me in passing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes indeed Kenny, well-put! The thought had occurred to me in passing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kenny Easwaran</title>
		<link>http://choiceandinference.com/?p=245&#038;cpage=1#comment-103</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenny Easwaran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 18:32:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://choiceandinference.com/?p=245#comment-103</guid>
		<description>This puzzle seems to me to have very similar form to the Monty Hall problem.  I choose door 1, and have credence 1/3 that I&#039;ve chosen the door with the prize.  Monty says one of the other doors has no prize, and he&#039;s about to reveal one.  I reason, if he reveals door 2, then my credence will be 1/2 that door 1 has the prize, and if he reveals door 3, then my credence will be 1/2 that door 1 has the prize, so I should already have credence 1/2 that door 1 has the prize.  But of course, this isn&#039;t how things work.

As some of the others have pointed out, the problem here is that you don&#039;t just learn that Alice has a red ace, but also that she said she has a red ace.  Similarly, in the Monty Hall problem, you don&#039;t just learn that door 3 has no prize, but that Monty has shown that door 3 has no prize.  In each case, one of the situations (the case where Alice has both aces, the case where the door you selected in the first round has the prize) allows two different ways for Alice/Monty to reveal the information.  Thus, on some specifications of what happens, each piece of information only has a 50% chance in this situation, and thus in some sense, half of this possibility is excluded as well when the information is received.  When you work through the calculations, you see that the proper credence both before and after this extra piece of information is still 1/5 in the Alice case and 1/3 in the Monty case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This puzzle seems to me to have very similar form to the Monty Hall problem.  I choose door 1, and have credence 1/3 that I&#8217;ve chosen the door with the prize.  Monty says one of the other doors has no prize, and he&#8217;s about to reveal one.  I reason, if he reveals door 2, then my credence will be 1/2 that door 1 has the prize, and if he reveals door 3, then my credence will be 1/2 that door 1 has the prize, so I should already have credence 1/2 that door 1 has the prize.  But of course, this isn&#8217;t how things work.</p>
<p>As some of the others have pointed out, the problem here is that you don&#8217;t just learn that Alice has a red ace, but also that she said she has a red ace.  Similarly, in the Monty Hall problem, you don&#8217;t just learn that door 3 has no prize, but that Monty has shown that door 3 has no prize.  In each case, one of the situations (the case where Alice has both aces, the case where the door you selected in the first round has the prize) allows two different ways for Alice/Monty to reveal the information.  Thus, on some specifications of what happens, each piece of information only has a 50% chance in this situation, and thus in some sense, half of this possibility is excluded as well when the information is received.  When you work through the calculations, you see that the proper credence both before and after this extra piece of information is still 1/5 in the Alice case and 1/3 in the Monty case.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jake Chandler</title>
		<link>http://choiceandinference.com/?p=245&#038;cpage=1#comment-99</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake Chandler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:28:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://choiceandinference.com/?p=245#comment-99</guid>
		<description>Hi Jeff. Good point about the state-space distinction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jeff. Good point about the state-space distinction.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jake Chandler</title>
		<link>http://choiceandinference.com/?p=245&#038;cpage=1#comment-98</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake Chandler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://choiceandinference.com/?p=245#comment-98</guid>
		<description>Yes, I know. Sorry, I should have stuck to your original notation!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I know. Sorry, I should have stuck to your original notation!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Joel Pust</title>
		<link>http://choiceandinference.com/?p=245&#038;cpage=1#comment-97</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel Pust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:11:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://choiceandinference.com/?p=245#comment-97</guid>
		<description>Hi Jake.  That is what I had in mind in taking the evidence to be &#039;that Red is announced&#039; (ARED).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Jake.  That is what I had in mind in taking the evidence to be &#8216;that Red is announced&#8217; (ARED).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jeff Russell</title>
		<link>http://choiceandinference.com/?p=245&#038;cpage=1#comment-96</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:42:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://choiceandinference.com/?p=245#comment-96</guid>
		<description>This puzzle doesn&#039;t look like it&#039;s really about reflection. Leave out the part of the story where Alice announces her intention to announce the color. Bob can still reason as follows: &quot;Either the card is black, or it is red. Each has probability one-half. If it is black, the probability of two aces is 1/3; if it is red, the probability of two aces is 1/3. So the probability that the other card is an ace is P(ace2&#124;black1)*P(black1) + P(ace2&#124;black2)*P(black2) = 1/3*1/2 + 1/3*1/2 = 1/3.&quot; No appeal to reflection there, just conditionalization.

It looks like the puzzle really arises from two incompatible ways of treating the state space. The official way it was given in the statement of the puzzle treated the two positions in Alice&#039;s hand as &lt;b&gt;indistinguishable&lt;/b&gt;. But in that case there&#039;s no way to talk of the color of &quot;&lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt; ace&quot;; i.e, there&#039;s no proposition in the state space to be expressed by  &quot;&lt;em&gt;That&lt;/em&gt; ace is black&quot;, as opposed to just &quot;I&#039;m holding a black ace.&quot; But if Alice only tells Bob &quot;I&#039;m holding a black ace&quot;, then Bob&#039;s second inference is mistaken. As Joel Pust explained, $$ P(AS \land AH &#124; AS)$$ and $$ P(AS \land AH &#124; AH)$$ are both still 1/5.

The alternative is that the two positions in Alice&#039;s hand are &lt;strong&gt;distinguished&lt;/strong&gt;—say she&#039;s holding one of them in her left hand and the other in her right hand. In that case there are in fact 12 different atomic states: $$ LAS \land RAH, LAH \land RAS, LAS \land RDH, LDH \land RAS$$, and so on. Then if Alice announces &quot;The card in my left hand is an ace&quot;, there are &lt;em&gt;six&lt;/em&gt; possibilities remaining, and the second card is an ace in &lt;em&gt;two&lt;/em&gt; of those six possibilities. So the probability after Alice&#039;s first announcement that she is holding a second ace is 1/3. Her later announcement of its color won&#039;t change this.

So there are two pieces of reasoning in the puzzle, one that leads to 1/5, another that leads to 1/3. Only the first is right if the cards are indistinguishable; only the second is right if the cards are distinguishable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This puzzle doesn&#8217;t look like it&#8217;s really about reflection. Leave out the part of the story where Alice announces her intention to announce the color. Bob can still reason as follows: &#8220;Either the card is black, or it is red. Each has probability one-half. If it is black, the probability of two aces is 1/3; if it is red, the probability of two aces is 1/3. So the probability that the other card is an ace is P(ace2|black1)*P(black1) + P(ace2|black2)*P(black2) = 1/3*1/2 + 1/3*1/2 = 1/3.&#8221; No appeal to reflection there, just conditionalization.</p>
<p>It looks like the puzzle really arises from two incompatible ways of treating the state space. The official way it was given in the statement of the puzzle treated the two positions in Alice&#8217;s hand as <b>indistinguishable</b>. But in that case there&#8217;s no way to talk of the color of &#8220;<i>that</i> ace&#8221;; i.e, there&#8217;s no proposition in the state space to be expressed by  &#8220;<em>That</em> ace is black&#8221;, as opposed to just &#8220;I&#8217;m holding a black ace.&#8221; But if Alice only tells Bob &#8220;I&#8217;m holding a black ace&#8221;, then Bob&#8217;s second inference is mistaken. As Joel Pust explained, <img src="http://choiceandinference.com/wp-content/cache/tex_3d78d3ec29a78ba575e98c893730a962.png" align="absmiddle" class="tex" alt=" P(AS \land AH | AS)" /> and <img src="http://choiceandinference.com/wp-content/cache/tex_95b1ab5383be46feafccccfda24c99c3.png" align="absmiddle" class="tex" alt=" P(AS \land AH | AH)" /> are both still 1/5.</p>
<p>The alternative is that the two positions in Alice&#8217;s hand are <strong>distinguished</strong>—say she&#8217;s holding one of them in her left hand and the other in her right hand. In that case there are in fact 12 different atomic states: <img src="http://choiceandinference.com/wp-content/cache/tex_462bbe71b2e7edf5fc330520dc8154de.png" align="absmiddle" class="tex" alt=" LAS \land RAH, LAH \land RAS, LAS \land RDH, LDH \land RAS" />, and so on. Then if Alice announces &#8220;The card in my left hand is an ace&#8221;, there are <em>six</em> possibilities remaining, and the second card is an ace in <em>two</em> of those six possibilities. So the probability after Alice&#8217;s first announcement that she is holding a second ace is 1/3. Her later announcement of its color won&#8217;t change this.</p>
<p>So there are two pieces of reasoning in the puzzle, one that leads to 1/5, another that leads to 1/3. Only the first is right if the cards are indistinguishable; only the second is right if the cards are distinguishable.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jake Chandler</title>
		<link>http://choiceandinference.com/?p=245&#038;cpage=1#comment-95</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake Chandler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:04:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://choiceandinference.com/?p=245#comment-95</guid>
		<description>Hi Joel, thanks for commenting!  Interesting; I think you may be right! 

My reasoning was as follows. Suppose the card is announced red, then Bob has just found out that Alice has (at least) the ace of hearts, i.e. Bob finds out that &lt;em&gt;AH&lt;/em&gt;. Now $$!\dfrac{\Pr(AH\mid AH\wedge AS) \Pr(AH\wedge AS)} {\Pr(AH)} = \dfrac {1\times  1/5} {3/5} = 1/3 .$$ 

But now I see that the way that I presented the problem doesn&#039;t vindicate this. Indeed, as the problem is presented here, if the card is announced red, Bob learns from Alice, not just the proposition that she has the ace of hearts, but also that she asserts this. Let $$S(P)$$ stand in for &#039;Alice says that &lt;em&gt;P&lt;/em&gt;&#039;. We get, for example: $$!\begin{array}{rcl} \Pr(AS\wedge AH\mid AS\wedge S(AS)) &amp; = &amp; \dfrac {\Pr(AS\wedge AH\wedge S(AS))} {\Pr(AS\wedge S(AS))} \\ &amp; = &amp; \dfrac {1/10} {1/2} \\ &amp; = &amp; 1/5. \end{array} $$

I think that we probably get the same kind of result even if we do away with Alice&#039;s assertion altogether, so that Bob finds things out &#039;directly&#039;, so to speak.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Joel, thanks for commenting!  Interesting; I think you may be right! </p>
<p>My reasoning was as follows. Suppose the card is announced red, then Bob has just found out that Alice has (at least) the ace of hearts, i.e. Bob finds out that <em>AH</em>. Now <center><img src="http://choiceandinference.com/wp-content/cache/tex_85d975607ddf51986aac97fa813124cc.png" align="absmiddle" class="tex" alt="\dfrac{\Pr(AH\mid AH\wedge AS) \Pr(AH\wedge AS)} {\Pr(AH)} = \dfrac {1\times  1/5} {3/5} = 1/3 ." /></center> </p>
<p>But now I see that the way that I presented the problem doesn&#8217;t vindicate this. Indeed, as the problem is presented here, if the card is announced red, Bob learns from Alice, not just the proposition that she has the ace of hearts, but also that she asserts this. Let <img src="http://choiceandinference.com/wp-content/cache/tex_2899873f9f212d5c002f651dd3629ddb.png" align="absmiddle" class="tex" alt="S(P)" /> stand in for &#8216;Alice says that <em>P</em>&#8216;. We get, for example: <center><img src="http://choiceandinference.com/wp-content/cache/tex_688c2d399df23574e2cfd3c48fee8b7a.png" align="absmiddle" class="tex" alt="\begin{array}{rcl} \Pr(AS\wedge AH\mid AS\wedge S(AS)) &amp; = &amp; \dfrac {\Pr(AS\wedge AH\wedge S(AS))} {\Pr(AS\wedge S(AS))} \\ &amp; = &amp; \dfrac {1/10} {1/2} \\ &amp; = &amp; 1/5. \end{array} " /></center></p>
<p>I think that we probably get the same kind of result even if we do away with Alice&#8217;s assertion altogether, so that Bob finds things out &#8216;directly&#8217;, so to speak.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
